Episode #25 – “This Isn’t a Podcast, It’s a Goddamned Twitch Stream”

Episode #25 – “This Isn’t a Podcast, It’s a Goddamned Twitch Stream”

Dec 31

Our twenty-fifth episode (!!) features Tzufit and Apple Cider  running down their favorite moments from the podcast this year as well as Celestalon’s admission about female moonkin.

This is a video from our live Twitch stream as our recording of the podcast didn’t actually occur like we thought it would.

See you in the new year, Justice Points fans!

Rate, comment and subscribe to us on iTunes and now Stitcher Radio!

Below the cut is a full transcript of Episode 25, “This Isn’t a Podcast, It’s a Goddamned Twitch Stream.” Many thanks to @IviaRelle for transcribing this episode.

Please note that due to the quality of the Twitch stream highlight, there are significantly more unclear words/names than usual for our transcriptions. We apologize for any confusion this causes as you read it.

Tzufit: Hello everybody and welcome back to Justice Points. We are so happy to have everyone today, both listening at home and hanging out with us live here in our chat room because today is our twenty-fifth episode of Justice Points! WOOHOO!

Apple Cider: WOOOO! YEAAHH! PARTY!

Tzufit: Kind of a big milestone for podcasts, it means you managed to stay motivated, to actually keep doing this, and haven’t decided that you hate your co-host or anything like that. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: So definitely an important point to get to and we’re so happy to be here and so happy that we have people listening to us and participating and that’s very cool and we appreciate all of you guys so much for doing that.

Apple Cider: Yeah, seriously. I’m still trying to figure out why twenty-five in particular is the big milestone, but it kind of makes sense from a standpoint of it’s half a year, roughly.

Tzufit: Yeah, that’s what I assume it is, cause like, if you’re doing a weekly podcast, it means you’ve made it six months.

Apple Cider: And that’s a long time!

Tzufit: It is! Yeah, that’s a lot of weeks to keep doing this, so. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Yeah, if you make it to twenty-five episodes, it’s- I think the expected rate of you continuing to do it for longer goes up dramatically, I guess? But yeah.

Tzufit: Yeah, it’s like a restaurant. You have to make it through the first year of business then you might be OK.

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Well, now we’ve done twenty-five episodes, OK, time to pack it up, we’re done, OK.

Tzufit: Alright. Yup. Can I put this on my tax return?

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: So before we started recording, one of the things that I asked the chat room, and one of the things that we’re gonna weigh in on, as well, is some of our favourite moments and some of our favourite episodes that we’ve recorded so far here on Justice Points. So, Apple, I will let you answer first.

Apple Cider: Oh, that’s, uh, so do we want to read from the chat room or we wanna talk about our stuff first?

Tzufit: Well, I guess let’s go ahead and do the chat room cause they had a couple of ones in particular that they liked.

Apple Cider: OK, so we have some listener favorites from our chat room on Twitch. From Snoopjack we have the post-Blizzcon episode cause he really likes all of the angrier episodes.

Tzufit: (Chuckling)

Apple Cider: The angrier the better. We have from Bodwick who is my guildmate, Boddi, the time travel one, obviously. Good choice.

Tzufit: Yeah, it’s a good pick.

Apple Cider: Yeah. It’s a solid pick. Seekeralex says yeah, the post-Blizzcon one or the two about atrocities, it kind of reminded me of how much horrible stuff I’ve done in-game over the years and glossed over. (Laughing)

Tzufit: Yeah, that was a difficult one to prepare for because as we were making our Google Doc for that episode I was like, well, I think I got to the point where I listed all the atrocities that really made me feel uncomfortable, and then I’d be like, oh yeah but there was that one quest, and then it’s just like all the feelings all over again. I’m a terrible person. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Yeah, definitely. (Laughing) Um, we also have from Illcrop, what up Illcrop! The interview with Helen Cheng was so dope.

Tzufit: Yeah, I’m still just amazed that we managed to get that to happen and, you know, Zarhym is my hero for letting us do that. It was our seventh show?

Apple Cider: Seventh show, mmhmm.

Tzufit: I’m pretty sure? That we recorded, and, like, when he actually invited us to do it, I don’t think we had five shows. (Laughing) You know?

Apple Cider: (Chuckling) Yeah.

Tzufit: So definitely a bit of a gamble on Blizzard’s part, to be like, hey podcast that has five shows and is about a slightly controversial topic!

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: Do you wanna interview one of our quest designers?

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: So. (Laughing) That was amazing.

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Yeah, well, we kind of got that- I feel like we got that on lockdown because before we even started the show in earnest, like, recording the podcast in earnest, we basically poked at Zarhym and said, you know, we’re gonna be starting a podcast about feminism and World of Warcraft so if you EVER have any female developers, CMs, quest designers, whatever that ever want to come on the show, I know- I don’t know if we’re able to have that kind of pull but just keep us in mind, you know, cause we would really like to.

Tzufit: And we just got super lucky because that was the first real round of interviews that Helen had participated in, so it just- everything fell into place and it was amazing. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Yeah, so- seriously. (Chuckling) We also have from the chat room- we have Tamer Liopleurodon who’s awesome. The milestone- oh, no, whoops, that’s not the right thing. (Laughing) She loved the [instinct?] episode and also any time Tzufit does her Thrall voice.

Tzufit: Aww. Well, thank you, Lio. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: I’ve worked so hard on perfecting it. I, like, just do my Chris Metzen voice in the mirror every, like, five minutes a day. My boyfriend thinks it’s a little bit strange but I tell him it’s important.

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Yeah, we- I feel like a lot of my favorite episodes have been the ones where we do get guests, like Helen Cheng, obviously. The first guest that we had on was Dee, Mainfloortank, and the mental illness episode was actually one of my favorites now that I think about it because Dee brought a lot of really amazing material to the table. Like, just-

Tzufit: He did a phenomenal job on the research for that episode.

Apple Cider: Seriously.

Tzufit: I just can’t- I mean- (Laughing) I still can’t get over Folami when she was on the show not too long ago to talk about motherhood. I think she and Dee are right there neck and neck for who did the most research and just, like, blew up our Google docs.

Apple Cider: Yeah, seriously, it was- cause seriously, I think a lot of people don’t realize that a LOT of research goes into the episodes. I mean, obviously, some of our sillier episodes, we don’t have to do a ton of research, but anything that’s lore analysis, that takes us a week plus to-

Tzufit: And we still get half of it wrong!

Apple Cider: Yeah, we still get half of it wrong, as people like to kindly remind us via Twitter that we got something wrong. But yea, a lot of research goes in, and it’s not just us, it’s the guests, too, like we’ve had some amazing guests that have really blown up our Google Docs. Also another favorite moment of mine, um, the relationships episode because, again, Tzufit’s Thrall voice is just amazing.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: And it gave us “BUT BABIES!” So. (Laughing) So, Tzufit, what are some of your favorite moments and episodes of Justice Points?

Tzufit: Um, of the more recent ones, one of my favorites has definitely been the headcanon episode where we talked about our personal lore. Part of the reason that that was so fulfilling to me personally was because, like, talking about the Westfall and the Defias headcanon that we did on the show, like, that’s been in my head, that’s been my Westfall, for like five years now.

Apple Cider: Mmhmm.

Tzufit: And to have people respond so positively to that and be like, yeah, that’s how Westfall should be! That was really cool and really satisfying for me, cause it was like, yeah, that IS how Westfall should be! (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: The other ones, for me- let’s see. I really loved the women in Pandaria episode we did, which was actually- it was our second episode, but in some ways it was really the first big episode that we did ‘cause our first episode was just, you know, we were kind of interviewing each other and talking about our goals for the podcast, but the women in Pandaria episode was the first time that Apple Cider and I really sat down and had a conversation about women in lore, and I had this moment of, like, this is gonna be awesome. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: This is gonna be SO much fun! So those two are definitely stand-outs for me, and I know, Apple Cider, that this is true for you, too: one of the things that has really surprised me over the last six months is, I really thought that my opinions about lore characters were, like, fully formed and I might swing a little bit one way or the other but in general I know how I feel about Jaina, I know how I feel about Sylvanas, I know how I feel about Aggra, and over the course of just doing these episodes, where we talk about those people a little bit more in-depth, so many of my opinions have changed and not slightly. They’ve gone from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Yeah, exactly. Like, the Klaxxi, I was really a big Klaxxi fangirl for the longest time, because, you know, ‘cause oh my god, sentient bug races, like, that- obviously we’ve had the Qiraji, the Nerubians, but a giant sentient bug offshoot race that has personality and political drama, like, I thought that was SO COOL, and then the more that we did the lore episodes, the more I was really, like, man, empress of the Mantid got straight up [edited] by the Klaxxi. Like, it’s this long con game, I feel-

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: I just- I feel like there’s so much potential feminist critique of a woman in power being driven to doubt herself and to fear all of her subjects in a hive colonized bug society. That seems very sort of antithetical. So, yeah, I mean, I love thinking about lore but I also like thinking about lore with somebody that doesn’t mind coloring outside of the lines as much as I do. (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing) Well, I know, too, that you’ve said that your opinion on Sylvanas has changed really drastically over the course of the show.

Apple Cider: Yes, yeah, well, because this- and this is funny, it’s like, I really didn’t like her before, and- I’m- I mean, to some degree I still don’t really like a lot of the stuff she’s done as a character. As a character, I think she’s a really well written character from a meta perspective, but I think as a character she’s a genocidal maniac to some degree. But, when you brought up the fact that she’s basically an extended rape allegory, like, that just flipped the script for me. That just changed everything. That just kind of, you know, made it- made her a lot more sympathetic because I think that she’s been through a lot of horrible stuff and it kind of changes your perspective on where she’s come from and it makes the situation of her turning into Lich King junior a lot more tragic.

Tzufit: Yeah, absolutely, and then for me, the major shifts that I’ve had, first and foremost, are Jaina. Like, Jaina is my girl now.

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: Like, when I got into Siege of Orgrimmar for the first time, and I got up to Galakras, and I realized I was gonna be fighting alongside Jaina? I took a dozen screenshots, I freaked out on Twitter.

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing) That’s my reaction to Jaina now, and six months ago I think I was very much kind of entrenched in that camp of people who remember Jaina from ICC and the reaction when Jaina cried over Arthas was always, oh, shut up Jaina, you know, stop whining, whatever, and when we really talked through Jaina’s relationship with Arthas in that relationships episode, and- it just, like, completely dawned on me while we were doing the episode that, yeah, her reaction is completely OK.

Apple Cider: Mmhmm!

Tzufit: It’s not disproportionate, it’s- you know, it’s totally appropriate for what is happening in that moment. Of course she’s gonna be emotional, of course she’s gonna cry, this is [edited] awful, you know? So, and then to see Jaina at the point that she is now where she’s got this very righteous anger about everything that happened in Theramore, and to watch her just be brushed aside by Varian during the cinematic, like, Jaina is my girl. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: I can’t even. I’m so excited to see where her story goes next, and I just really hope they don’t, like, mess it up. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Yeah. Seriously, because, like, I feel like if you really wanna look at a concrete perspective of who- if you wanna look at the biggest way of seeing how the fanbase reacts to women in general, Jaina is obviously the stand-out, the pinnacle of that. Like, she foments such divisive opinions about her characterization, and I feel like a lot of the lashback to Icecrown behaviour was people not really accepting that a woman can be emotional and have it really be justified.

Tzufit: Yeah, absolutely, cause I mean, you have Saurfang there, too, who is also extremely emotional about what he’s finding, so it’s not- you know, there’s really no reason to be accepting of one reaction and not the other.

Apple Cider: Yeah. We’re already started on about Jaina again, we’re just gonna spend the whole episode talking about Jaina.

Tzufit: I’m looking at what Lio said in chat, because it’s perfect. She says, when I read that Kael was all like, she’s mine, and Arthas was like, she’s mine, and she was all like, double middle fingers, [edited] all y’all! I knew me and Jaina were BFFs. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: All she ever wanted to do was study, and people keep trying to hook her up with everybody, and I just don’t- I’m not even feeling it, so.

Tzufit: Well, and the other one aside from Jaina that I’ve really done a flip on is Aggra. Like, I did not care for Aggra when I read the Shattering. I liked her a whole lot less through all of Cataclysm, where she just became this vehicle for Thrall’s progression, and you know, at the same time, like, I recognized that she was a vehicle for Thrall’s progression, but simultaneously didn’t really care for the character herself, and as we’ve been talking about Aggra’s lack of a role in Warlords of Draenor and then just hearing all the other ideas people have put out there for ways that she could be really integral to the story, I love the idea of Aggra now! Like, I’m all on board with Aggra, and that’s been a huge shift for me.

Apple Cider: Yeah, the second that you make a quote-unquote “inconsequential female character”, OK, maybe I won’t care about it as much. the second you then push the already inconsequential character to the background, I’m like, hell yeah, she should be the main character of the story, I’m so there, I’m so ready for her to be awesome, and yeah, I didn’t like Aggra when she first came out because I think that if you create a female character and it feels obvious that the creators didn’t have a lot of intentions for her, then yeah, the fanbase is gonna follow suit, but if you then try to relegate her to a secondary position, yeah, people are gonna get up in arms about it, and I was up in arms about it, and I think she should have a way better plotline, especially now she’s like a mom and it’s something we don’t really get to see in Warcraft.

Tzufit: Well, and especially now that she’s a rallying point for the community-

Apple Cider: (Chuckling)

Tzufit: You’d think that maybe it might be smart to do something with that before it gets worse, but yeah, what do I know.

Apple Cider: Yeah, what do you know? Yeah. (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: I think that’s been one of the most fun parts about the podcast so far in general, is just that, I feel like we’ve had an impact on the community, but also that I think that we’ve just been part of a lot of really cool discussions about lore and about everything, and I think that- not to pat ourselves on the back, like, good job, go us, but I think that there really aren’t a lot of other podcasts that are doing the thing that we’re doing and talking about the things that we’re talking about and I think that’s one of the reasons why we wanted to get the podcast started was to fill that gap that we felt was part of the podcasting community. You know, there wasn’t a podcast that was specifically about all of the things that I wanted to listen to, so of course, I just had to go and make one myself.

Tzufit: Well, and this is an appropriate point, I guess, to give a shoutout to Rho at Realm Maintenance who very nicely-

Apple Cider: Yes!

Tzufit: He did- so, Rho does a wrap-up of podcasting news called Yearly Maintenance at the end of the year, and it’s a series of several shows, and he just finished up with his final episode that he released this past week, and he gave out some awards, and he named Justice Points the best unique podcast of 2013, and I think that that is pretty perfect for us. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: But thank you to Rho, cause we- you know, we really appreciate that, obviously.

Apple Cider: Yeah, seriously, it was such a great honor, and I’d like to thank the academy and all my friends-

Tzufit: And I’d like to thank Elune!

Apple Cider: Yes, yes, bless Elune. It feels weird being considered unique, but on the other hand, it doesn’t feel that weird at all, considering that we are?

Tzufit: Well, I think we’re kind of at a funny point in that when it comes to feminist discourse we’re not especially unique, lots of feminists talk about sexism in media and the way that we interact with that, but in the Warcraft community specifically, we are unique because those two things don’t often intersect.

Apple Cider: Yeah, absolutely.

Tzufit: So!

Apple Cider: So! (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing) So, next up, we should go to- so, when we were preparing for the show today we offered to people that they could ask us pretty much anything about ourselves, about the show, about Warcraft, and we did get a couple of questions from our listeners, so, Apple, I’ll let you pick one out of the hat, and we can go from there.

Apple Cider: OK! We got a question from Feymercurial on Twitter, and they asked, why’s Aegwynn treated like she doesn’t exist? Would be a great quest giver to teach us about lore! And that is a very good question because it’s pretty obvious that a lot of people in Warcraft lore get to come back later. Like, they get either resurrected or they come back as ghosts. Like-

Tzufit: Unless you’re Turalyon or Alleria.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: I’m pretty sure they’re never showing up again.

Apple Cider: Yeah, like, if you’re alive, you can get dumped out of the story, but if you’re DEAD you can totally come back, and the fact that Nielas Aran is still around as a preserved ghost seems to be completely fine, but the fact that Aegwynn is nowhere to be found, despite the fact that she’s an extremely powerful mage and one of the Tirisfal and like the head of Tirisfal and, um, yeah, why doesn’t she get a ghost? Her son got a ghost, her- the baby daddy got a ghost! Why not-

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: I was gonna say, like it wasn’t her husband, it wasn’t her- (Laughing) but-

Tzufit: I mean, here’s my two cents: from a completely realistic standpoint, I think probably the reason that Blizzard has not made an attempt to include Aegwynn in the story yet in the MMO both is because she’s dead and they’d have to find a way to write that back in, not that that is a problem, they have done that, they can get over that issue (laughing) as they have shown before.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: However, I think, again, just my guess, but I think Blizzard has been pretty carefully avoiding the Guardian of Tirisfal thing. We really have not seen a whole lot of that in the MMO itself. I think that for whatever reason, and, you know, the name that should not be spoken- (Chuckling) I don’t know if part of it has to do with the fact that that’s where the story technically goes eventually, but it just seems like they have really not covered that area of Azeroth’s history at all. Which, on the one hand, is OK cause a lot of it’s terrible. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Chuckling)

Tzufit: And on the other hand, it means we don’t get Aegwynn! And that’s not OK.

Apple Cider: Yeah. It seems like-

Tzufit: I don’t know.

Apple Cider: It seems like everybody connected to Medivh, though, gets brought back as a ghost, and if Aegwynn is still- like, didn’t we talk about in another episode that she’s ostensibly buried somewhere near Karazhan, or in Karazhan, or-

Tzufit: I don’t remember. I think that sounds right, though.

Apple Cider: Yeah, or she’s, like, buried near Medivh or something like that? And if Medivh’s a ghost, and Nielas Aran is a ghost, that, you know, what if they- OK, so, we already have been speculating that Karazhan is getting revamped or changed in the new expansion somehow.

Tzufit: Either that or someone’s really been trolling us.

Apple Cider: Yeah, seriously. Um, I mean, it would be really cool if she could somehow come back as a ghost in a revamped Karazhan, like maybe she’s like- oh, thank you cat. (Laughing)

Tzufit: [Abyschan?] says that she’s buried in Morgan’s Plot. I’m sorry if I butchered your name, I probably did.

Apple Cider: Morgan’s Plot, is that out near Scarlet Monastery? I have no idea where that is. This is- I’m terrible at geography.

Tzufit: Well, I guess the answer is, you know, obviously we don’t know why Blizzard hasn’t covered Aegwynn but she does seem, to me, to be a very obvious choice for, like, hey, you want an extremely powerful, intelligent woman character that could easily fit into this story in one of a thousand different ways? Well, let’s get Aegwynn back in here.

Apple Cider: Yeah, seriously. Why not? They have the power to change reality. I don’t see a problem with this, so bring Aegwynn back. DONE!

Tzufit: Oh, here we go, Morgan’s Plot is the cemetery where you respawn when you die in Karazhan.

Apple Cider: Yeah, so she should be a ghost that sends you back into a revamped Kara to- I don’t know, avenge her son, or kill Sargeras, I don’t [edited] know. Make something up!

Tzufit: (Laughing) I mean, really, what I would love to see is her and Jaina interacting in the MMO. That would make me pretty happy, but, yeah. But, again, all they need to do is find some way to bring her back to life or make her a ghost and- they do it all the time, so just do it for Aegwynn.

Apple Cider: Yeah, seriously, just do it for her, it’s fine.

Tzufit: Yeah. Alright, next question. This one was from [alchemist adelen?] on Twitter who said, what do you think most needs addressing as we head into the new expansion? And, do you see yourselves continuing to record?

Apple Cider: Hmm. Well, I hope so? (Laughing)

Tzufit: Um. The answer to the second question is yes. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Seriously! (Laughing) I’d be really sad if we just stopped!

Tzufit: Yeah, and I think, too- obviously there’s always a bit of a slump in content when we get the announcement of a new expansion, but we don’t actually have the expansion or the beta yet. But, you know, for us, since we’re still relatively new, we still have a lot of stuff to cover. You know, even before we start to get things like the beta and things like whatever the next Ji Firepaw is gonna be that we need to talk about, so I think we- that will not be an issue, yeah.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: We always come up with new ideas all the time, like- basically we have this giant master list, of all the things that we wanted to cover when we first started to cover when we first started the show that we’ve been working off of and we’ve obviously added stuff in as it’s come up. Like, there’s the motherhood episode was something that we kind of were working on and we had no really solid ideas of doing it, and then when the thing with Aggra happened it basically wrote itself.

Tzufit: (Laughing) Yeah.

Apple Cider: (Laughing) But, you know, we’re up for changing stuff all the time. Like, we’re- I know that we’re trying to see if we can pull together an episode about soloing content because that’s something that I’ve been really interested in lately, but we found out that one of the top soloers, like, the top DK, blood DK soloers, is actually a woman, and nobody talks about that, so we’re, you know, that would be kind of really interesting, cause anything can be written from a feminist perspective, and it’s always about stuff that we’re finding interesting, especially when there is no new content (laughing) to talk about, to speak of.

Tzufit: Well, and we also have, I think we mentioned this on the preview show, but one of the things we’re doing in the new year is that we have several people who we just really wanted them to be on the show-

Apple Cider: Mmhmm!

Tzufit: Because we’re really interested in having them engage in the conversation that we’re having. So, we’re gonna do a little bit more open discussion with those people so that we can cover a range of topics, but make sure that we have conversations with people who we think are gonna bring a lot to the table about this particular subject. So we’re excited about that.

Apple Cider: Yeah, it’s always been one of the goals of our podcast to promote women and people in the community that have a unique perspective on Warcraft, from some of the same aspects that we do, so it’s nice to kind of just say, “Hey, you’re doing some really cool stuff here, let’s talk about it. Let’s have you on the show, let’s highlight what you’re doing.”

Tzufit: Yeah. OK, so the second part of that question was, well technically the first part, what do you think most needs addressing as we head into the new expansion?

Apple Cider: Umm. (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Uh, whether or not garrisons are going to have a closet option.

Tzufit: Wardrobe? Yeah.

Apple Cider: Wardrobe. (Laughing) Obviously, seeing where the story’s gonna go.

Tzufit: Yeah, I mean, it’s hard to say anything for sure until we have a little more information but I think making sure that we still have a variety of women characters and have plenty of women characters, that’s certainly important from a lore creation standpoint. I think from a community standpoint, I think we need better reporting tools, and I think we need better ways to tailor our conversations in-game so that we don’t necessarily have to see things that we don’t want to see, OR if we’re dealing with actual harassment or problematic behaviour, that there’s a better way to report that and a better system in place for punishing that.

Apple Cider: Yeah. That’s also kind of a big deal. I feel like- cause the community is starting to come together in a lot of really intense ways, especially with realm mergers and CRZ and the fact that all raid content now other than mythic level in Warlords of Draenor is gonna be flexible. This is stuff that’s going to be super super critical. Like, getting groups to work together and things like that. I have no opinion on the flying mount [edited], I don’t care.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing) No, no opinion about that because I just do not- just don’t care. Yes, story, community, how they’re going to address more end-game content that isn’t raiding, and I think that they started off in a good way with Mists of Pandaria but they need to do more. Yeah, mostly the story, mostly because most of our show is about lore content, so where they kind of go with Yrel, Aggra, Draka, Zaela, all that.

Tzufit: Jaina.

Apple Cider: Jaina, Moira. (Laughing) Tyrande, Vereesa. (Laughing)

Tzufit: Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of- one of the things that’s being talked about in chat right now is a potential love interest for Anduin someday, and I think both in terms of Anduin and with a lot of the women in the story, we’re really getting to a point where there’s- their moments are coming, kind of, you know? Like, there’s a lot that we’ve been building up to for them, especially for somebody like Jaina, like Anduin, to an extent like Aggra, now that she’s become the focal point, so I think seeing how Blizzard deals with them in the upcoming expansion is gonna be pretty important, and it does seem like they learn from what has come before. Maybe not as quickly as we would like, or as consistently as we would like, but I’m hoping that we see more progress in that direction.

Apple Cider: Yeah. Um, we should go- OK, next question, this is a long one. This is actually an email. This is from [signia?]. Do you ever worry that Blizzard is setting up certain characters to take a fall so that their chosen boys, Thrall and Varian, can always look good? Jaina’s justified anger at the bombing of Theramore and the betrayal of Dalaran come to mind, but Varian never tells her what’s up with talking to the Blood Elves beforehand. Meanwhile, a lot of male players are gleefully rubbing their hands at the idea, hoping she becomes a villain so they can “take the [edited] out, finally”. See also, wanting to take out Sylvanas. She had no respect in trying to be a diplomat for male players, and she gets no respect after finally being pushed to the brink of rage. This is a worrying trend from Blizzard, creating strong women just so they can be torn down and controlled by men when it comes down to it. Should we expect to see Moira get fridged while protecting her son? Oh, but at least it’s a boy! Or Aggra? Will Tyrande continue to be hushed by Malfurion, and is this what male players actually want in WoW? That’s- kind of a complex question.

Tzufit: Good question. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Good question, it’s very complex, though, like. (Laughing)

Tzufit: Well, let’s tackle the Blizzard aspect of this first. So, basically in terms of- so is Blizzard setting up certain characters to take a fall so that their chosen boys can always look good, um. Yeah. (Laughing) You know, I mean, we talked about that, definitely, in the Jaina episode when we did our 5.4 reaction, that Jaina has really inexplicably just swapped places with Varian, in terms of their outlook on diplomacy, and that’s extremely frustrating because, you know, Jaina was in a fine point when it came to diplomacy, and Varian was the offset to that, the foil to that, and then when they needed to make Varian more appealing to the players, they made Jaina the bad guy, and I don’t know- I think some of it is because Blizzard relies so heavily on so many story tropes that it just, like, they- that it’s just lazy sometimes, and it’s just, you know, well this is the pattern that a story like this usually follows, this is the pattern that we’re gonna follow, you know, where you have this very innocent upstanding librarian lady who suddenly has her innocence shattered because something terrible happens, in Jaina’s case Theramore, and then she turns into Raving Angry Lady, and, you know, certainly I fault Blizzard for falling into those tropes, but I think it is more of a problem that we seem to assume that fantasy stories have to fall within that kind of stuff rather than pushing the boundaries more and trying to do something different.

Apple Cider: Yeah. It’s because, I think, fantasy as a genre has always kind of relied on tropes since the days of sword and sorcery, high fantasy- shoutout to [Bruce Mainville] for introducing me to the concept of sword and sorcery fantasy versus high fantasy, same with Dysmorphia, but- so basically we’ve been working from Tolkien onwards. The concepts that we have of Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, is very Tolkien, and Tolkien got it from sword and sorcery, so there have been tropes that have existed for a hundred years plus, now, and I don’t think gaming and I don’t think fantasy in general moves forward enough with that sort of stuff, and I think a lot of what Blizzard’s problem is that a lot of the big movers and shakers in the story development are still guys that started working in the gaming industry when they were twenty, twenty-five, and they haven’t moved past a lot of the things that they still find cool, and I think that there is a definite possibility that some of it’s slightly malicious, but not really to the point that I think that it’s all malicious. I think a lot of it is ignorance. It’s a lot of, like, “Well I find guys doing this stuff so super fun and cool and I’m making this game for ME,” and then not making a game for eight million other people who are VERY very different, and making a story that maybe they wanna see.

Tzufit: Yeah. I think, you know, one of the quotes that gets brought up from Blizzcon is when they talk about, they just wanna make games that are fun to them, and- I think that quote is taken a little bit out of context when we use it to mean that they’re thinking of it from a male viewpoint. I think what that person intended from that offhand comment was that they’re making games that are fun to play for them, so things like Hearthstone. Incredibly fun to play, right? And, you know, something that started out being tested around the Blizzard offices where, you know, people are playing it on their iPads constantly, that kind of thing, but I think it’s important that Blizzard understands that, you know, even though gameplay is always first for them, and story is secondary. Even if we all agree with that when it comes to World of Warcraft, story is still really important, and especially when you’re talking about a story that is actively problematic for a huge percentage of your player base.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: You know, at that point, you really do have to think outside your own head and look around and see the feedback that you’re getting from people in the community or people who are different than you.

Apple Cider: Yeah. That also is a diversity issue in gaming in general. This is not just Blizzard, because Blizzard is a big company and they do have quite a few different groups of people working in their offices, but if you look at something like Bioware. Bioware, I know David Gaider’s gone on record talking about how they have focus groups within the developers to sit down and say, well, what do you think about these story elements, and having people go, well, this really does make me feel uncomfortable as x, y, and z, as a woman, or as any other thing, so it’s like, you need that kind of feedback before it even gets to the public phase, and then having your audience react to it, you know? So it’s- it’s not just a Blizzard thing, I will say that, this is a gaming sphere problem and if we wanna even go more macroscopic it’s a culture issue.

Tzufit: Oh, yeah.

Apple Cider: (Laughing) What kinds of stories are prized, what kind of stories are not. So, you know.

Tzufit: And we did actually get a few questions in chat here, while we were talking about that one, so let’s see what we’ve got here. [Seekeralex?] asks, I’m not sure if it’s been asked before but as a follow-up to the stuff with Ji, did you guys expect any more development for Ji and Aysa, and was their little scene in Siege of Orgrimmar satisfying for you all?

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: OK. Was it satisfactory? I don’t know if tears of joy-

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: Weeping every time I get to that point in the raid instance, qualifies as satisfactory, but if so, I’m gonna go with yes.

Apple Cider: Yess.

Tzufit: (Laughing) Definitely, definitely satisfactory. And we have touched on this a little bit in the past, but yeah, absolutely, I don’t think that that scene would have been nearly as effective or as emotional if Ji had maintained his original dialog, because his original dialog just kind of made it seem like he was this hot-to-trot panda who just kind of wanted to get with any lady pandas he could find, whereas once it was redone it really is about him having, you know, feelings, having a crush on Aysa, and so that’s a very different type of thing to walk into in Siege of Orgrimmar for her to be so invested in saving him and for them to- I can’t even. Can’t even do it.

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: So. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: It was such a big deal, because it- Ji’s character design changing from the criticism and I- I mentioned this before, but I actually got to talk to Craig Amai who’s the quest- well, he’s head of- basically, OK, so there’s two designers now. Dave Kozak used to be head of quest AND story, or  he used to just be story, and story included quest design and included narrative, and they split that into two parts, and the head of quest design is now Craig Amai, and the head of narrative is Dave Kozak. Craig Amai is the one that came up with Ji, because one of the things that we learned when we interviewed Helen is that quest designers often create a lot of the NPCs that you come across wholesale when you’re questing. Like, notable people that aren’t the really big power players of the overarching narrative of World of Warcraft, that’s all created by individual or groups of quest designers. So-

Tzufit: Which is really cool.

Apple Cider: Yeah. So, Ji being Craig’s baby, so to speak, was kind of a big deal because he said, when I talked to him at Blizzcon, he said that that criticism made him really rethink the character, so to have Ji go from being just this kind of hotheaded guy and making offhanded comments about lady pandas’ appearances, it- the change made him seem a lot more thoughtful despite the fact that he is the, you know, of the Huojin and that they’re very fiery-tempered and they’re very action-oriented versus reflection-oriented, and the fact that Ji and Aysa were so personality-wise and diametrically opposed and got angry over how Ji handled the healing of the Turtle, and that that’s what initially led to the development of the pandas splitting up to different factions, the fact that they come together after, in the Siege of Orgrimmar, it’s such a more tragic, beautiful story, and I totally believe that they went back to the Turtle and run amok and they’re gonna have like a million children and live happily ever after.

Tzufit: (Laughing) And I do have to say, I mean, it was a total surprise to me when I got to that point in Siege of Orgrimmar and saw that happening. You know, my raid group was in no way prepared for my reaction because they are not- they’re not lore people, so they had no idea what was going on and I think only a handful of them have even done the Pandaren starting area to know what was happening and I’m just losing my shit on vent.

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing) So, um, I did not expect that to happen. I especially didn’t expect it to happen in the middle of doing trash or something. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: Just, it really hit me like a truck, and I think that’s why I still can’t fully deal with the whole thing because it was so unexpected and such a sweet, bittersweet resolution to that story, and it does sound like, unfortunately, we aren’t going to hear a lot about them in Warlords of Draenor which is sad and kind of awful cause they’re very cool characters and, you know, it doesn’t- I guess it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for the Pandaren to be sticking around if their faction leaders aren’t there, but all that aside I found it to be a very satisfying and fulfilling and sweet resolution to that story.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Can’t even. Can’t even deal with this. Just, all the feels. Can’t even.

Tzufit: Uhhh, let’s see, OK, so another chat question that we had from [nobble87?], first timer to the show, so I don’t know if this is a good question. What are your expectations for Yrel in Warlords of Draenor? What do you hope they’ll do with her? Apple, I will let you talk about that a little bit, since you have some personal insight on that.

Apple Cider: Yes, I do! OK, so, again, I went to Blizzcon and I actually got to talk to Helen Cheng who originally pitched Yrel to CDev, because CDev is very collaborative, so I have an understanding that Yrel is going to kind of take this trajectory of growing as a character over the course of the expansion, kind of like how we’ve seen other characters grow in some of the patches, like Anduin in Mists of Pandaria. She’s going to be maybe traveling the arc of maybe in some of the player characters where she starts out as one kind of person and she develops into this very headstrong, astute, very powerful warrior paladin. I’m not exactly sure on the details about that, but she’s going to grow with the players, and she’s going to be somebody that’s kind of there for all of the story and all of the adventures that we go through, and I know that she is partially involved in the storyline that Alliance players start with in Shadowmoon Valley, so I have a feeling that’s kind of where it all starts. One second, I’ve got a cat problem.

Tzufit: (Laughing) For those in chat, we’ll be giving out Skype info here relatively shortly, if anybody wants to call in, so have your Skype handles ready for us. Also, I can’t type today and I apologize for that. Oh yeah, Skype info.

Apple Cider: I’m back, sorry. Sorry about that.

Tzufit: It’s OK!

Apple Cider: People are just gonna have to deal with that there’s a cat meowing in the background of this podcast. (Laughing)

Tzufit: Yeah. I think we discussed Yrel a little bit in our post-Blizzcon wrap-up episode and I think obviously having had a chance to speak to Helen Cheng on the podcast and see that she’s really committed to the idea of strong and interesting and diverse women characters, definitely excited to have her behind a character like Yrel, who certainly has the potential to have a really amazing story that follows us throughout Warlords, so I think it sounds very cool. I hope the references to Joan of Arc were really just something that Dave Kozak tossed out there, because it’s what people think of when they think of a religious woman warrior, they go Joan of Arc, and, you know, don’t necessarily think of how problematic that comparison-

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Yeah.

Tzufit: (Laughing) Um, so, I think Yrel has tons of potential. I feel sorry for all you Horde players who aren’t gonna get to hang out with her, and, yeah, I’m certainly looking forward to seeing her storyline develop.

Apple Cider: Yeah. Um, did we have any other questions?

Tzufit: Um, let me see if we had any other in chat- I think those were most of them. Yeah, I think that’s pretty much everything.

Apple Cider: Want to go to the-

Tzufit: Yeah, so we can go to the call-in-

Apple Cider: Oh, no no!

Tzufit: No?

Apple Cider: Celestalon.

Tzufit: OH!

Apple Cider: Yes! (Laughing)

Tzufit: Then stop for a second cause you’re gonna have to cut out all of that ridiculousness. Right. So, one piece of news that we have this week from Twitter, very crucial, is Celestalon, in what was clearly not a joke or a troll, an absolutely serious-

Apple Cider: Absolutely!

Tzufit: Confirmed that-

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: All the Moonkin in the game: currently women.

Apple Cider: Mmhmm! Yup.

Tzufit: So they were thinking about adding in a male model for the Moonkin, but they thought the female model was fine.

Apple Cider: Yeah. The default female model. (Laughing)

Tzufit: Very important to know, and of course makes perfect sense from a lore standpoint. We’ve got Elune, who is the creator of the Moonkin in the first place, as- I don’t know if that quest is even still in the game or not, but there used to be a quest out in Winterspring where you got to see the history of the Owlkin and how that whole thing happened, and so let’s see, we got priestesses who serve Elune, it’s pretty much a woman-centric thing, so of course all the Moonkin are gonna be ladies.

Apple Cider: Yeah, seriously. But, the idea of Moonkin players losing their [edited] over playing a female model-

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Makes me smile with unabated glee! (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: It’s- it’s like the time that they told everybody that the special effect for the caster legendary was going to be a female dragon and people promptly lost their [edited] about it.

Tzufit: (Laughing hard)

Apple Cider: It’s the best. (Laughing)

Tzufit: That was a very juicy bit.

Apple Cider: Yeah. So, we- as promised, we’re going to do a call-in portion to the show. Um… So, I’m gonna- we have never done this before, so if it gets a little screwed up, stay with us, I’m also going to tweet about it, so… Do I really…

Tzufit: Basically I think what we really need is for Apple Cider to have your Skype handle.

Apple Cider: Yes. You have to add me, I’ll put it in the chat room.

Tzufit: And so, if you want to call in and talk to us, we need your Skype handle in the chat channel, please.

Apple Cider: And now we get to wait for people to roll in, I suppose.

Tzufit: (Laughing) Yeah, we’ve never done this before and if nobody calls us we’re probably gonna be sad and never do it again.

Apple Cider: (Laughing) It’s-

Tzufit: So just- just bear that in mind.

Apple Cider: No, it’s totally because everybody right now is, um, is like feverishly running to their Skype.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: To their Skype right now.

Tzufit: Yeah, their Skype that’s on the computer on the opposite side of the house from-

Apple Cider: Well, they could! They could, I don’t know, you don’t know their life, you don’t know what they’re about! (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing) If we have people from in chat I think we’re basically gonna have people come in, say hi, if they have any questions that’s cool, if you want to, like, give us a liopleurodon-esque shoutout about Jaina, we’re cool with that.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: I think we have our first person? So.

Tzufit: Oh, cool!

Apple Cider: Kay, this is [Avischan]. Hang on, let me just get her in.

Tzufit: If you want to-

Apple Cider: Meet your Twitch stream! (Long silence) I think we have our first person. Did you meet your Twitch stream? Hello? OK, hello [Avischan] you’re on Justice Points! Hello! (Silence) Hello?

Tzufit: (Chuckling)

Apple Cider: You’re- we don’t hear you.

Tzufit: We can’t hear you. Aww.

Apple Cider: Aww! (Laughing)

Tzufit: Well, do you wanna call us back? See if you can get your mic working and call us back?

Apple Cider: OK, hang on, I’ll- well- you can call back later if you want! Sorry! Let me see.

Tzufit: I think you just- you right click on her and click remove her from this group.

Apple Cider: Umm…

Tzufit: Do you not have that?

Apple Cider: Yeah, I have that, OK.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: OK so we have- I believe this is Boddi. OK… There we go… YES! Hello!

Tzufit: Yay!

Apple Cider: Hey! You’re on Justice Points!

Boddi: Oh boy.

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing) Boddi, I’ve wanted to take this opportunity to tell the world that I am so jell of your tank skills.

Apple Cider: (Laughing hard)

Boddi: Just gotta stay with it.

Apple Cider: (Laughing very hard)

Tzufit: (Laughing hard) Boddi has generously joined us on the level Goblin fun times and has been nice enough to tank when I pull everything in the dungeon, so I appreciate that.

Apple Cider: Cause he- it- you gotta stay lifted, though.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: And not get jell.

Boddi: That’s the key.

Apple Cider: Not to get jell!

Tzufit: So Boddi I know you told us your favorite episode of Justice Points so far was the time travel episode, correct?

Boddi: Oh, absolutely. That was amazing.

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: So, Boddi, what- do you have any particular things that you think we should be covering in the future? Any characters that you really think we need to talk about? That sort of thing.

Boddi: I was curious about our good friends at the- oh, where is it… I’m drawing a blank now. Good job, me.

Tzufit: (Chuckling)

Boddi: Oh, our friends, the Ogres up in Ogri’la, what have they been doing recently, have we heard anything from them in a long time…

Tzufit: You know, that’s a good question, and I saw a couple of people talking about this on Twitter the other day, too. I’m really curious if we’re ever going to get a female Ogre model, considering that there are going to be, you know, like, a [edited]-load of Ogres again in Draenor, cause that’s what we all need. But, you know, I wonder if we’re gonna have a whole raid of Ogres, are they all gonna be dude Ogres, still?

Apple Cider: Yeah. I-

Boddi: Well, I thought- now I was under the impression, since we recently learned that the Moonkin are all female, and they share a casting animation with the Ogres, I’m wondering if-

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Boddi: I wonder if there’s not something they’re not telling us about that, too.

Tzufit: Oh my gosh, this is a fantastic point. So, you heard it here first, on Justice Points, all the Ogres are actually women.

Apple Cider: Mmhmm! Yup.

Tzufit: So, important. Important news.

Apple Cider: Also, topless, apparently.

Tzufit: Yeah, that’s true, but Boddi has a great point they dance the exact same way as Moonkin do, so…

Apple Cider: Yeah. There could be no other possible reason for this. None whatsoever, it has to be default female.

Tzufit: Yup.

Apple Cider: Absolutely.

Tzufit: Alright, well, we have now provided two default females in WoW today, so I feel like- I feel like it’s been a good, productive day.

Apple Cider: Yeah. Blizzard, we’re doing your job for you. This is very-

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: What- dropping the ball, here. Seriously. (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing hard)

Apple Cider: They’d- oh, they did have Ogre, uh, female Ogre spec at Blizzcon, but-

Tzufit: DID THEY?

Apple Cider: I think- I don’t know, I wasn’t at the art panel, so- (Laughing)

Tzufit: I think not, and I watched some of that, but I watched the live raid, too, so.

Apple Cider: Yeah. I hope they have a female Ogre model, cause apparently that’s where- that’s where, um… what is it that’s apparently the- the pairing between Ogres and Gronn?

Tzufit: Oh, I have no idea. (Laughing) You’re way outside my lore knowledge.

Apple Cider: I don’t know. It’s like, well-

Boddi: The Moonkin.

Apple Cider: The Moonk- (Laughing hard)

Boddi: We’ve come full-circle.

Apple Cider: Oh, god. It’s something- (Sigh) yes, something is- I don’t even know. I’ll have to figure it out later, but anyway. (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing) Alright.

Apple Cider: Ummm… OK, I think we have another caller…

Tzufit: OK…

Apple Cider: So we’re going to have to let you go, Boddi, but thank you for being on the show.

Tzufit: Yeah.

Boddi: Hey, thanks for putting the podcast together! Much props for getting yourselves out there and getting the opinions out there. People need to hear this.

Apple Cider: Well thank you!

Tzufit: Aww, thanks Boddi!

Apple Cider: Thank you, that’s very nice.

Tzufit: I promise not to volunteer you to do conveyor belts on-

Apple Cider: (Laughing hard)

Tzufit: Probably. Unless we really have nobody else.

Boddi: Lies. All lies.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing very hard) OK, we’ll talk to you later. (Still laughing)

Boddi: Thanks for having me!

Apple Cider: No problem! (Laughing) [Silence] OK, and- ow, ow, there’s a cat- there is a cat on my-

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: There’s a cat on my head! Maybe he’ll be quiet now. Uh… see… Uh… [Nobble]? This is so confusing.

Tzufit: (Laughing) And this was the last call-in show we ever did.

Apple Cider: -ever did. (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Sigh) (Grumble) [Nobble] is- DK soloer person on-

Tzufit: Oh, cool! I know they said they were a first time listener.

Apple Cider: Yes. Hello! Are they even in the- no they’re not.

Tzufit: Says they can’t be added until they accept your contact request, according to Skype.

Apple Cider: OK.

Tzufit: Guys, we’re really good at Skype. I don’t know if I told you that before.

Apple Cider: Yeah. [Nobble], add your thing to the thing.

Tzufit: (Laughing hard) Yeah, OK.

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: There we go… maybe.

Apple Cider: Maybe…

Tzufit: Hello!

Apple Cider: Hello?

Nobble: Hello!

Apple Cider: Hey!

Tzufit: Hey!

Apple Cider: Hi! Hi, what’s up? Ow, ow ow, there’s a-

Nobble: Hang on, let me mute the stream because it goes- Alright, there we go, hello!

Apple Cider: Hello!

Tzufit: Hello! Thank you for joining us!

Apple Cider: Yeah!

Nobble: Thank you for having me, but I’m not a DK soloer.

Apple Cider: Oh, you’re not, I thought you were. Oh.

Nobble: Nah, I’m just a fan of DKs. I’m a paladin myself.

Apple Cider: Oh!

Tzufit: That’s OK.

Apple Cider: So, do you solo stuff as a paladin?

Nobble: Yeah.

Apple Cider: OK!

Nobble: Well, I haven’t done it in a while, but last time that I raided was Lich King ten-man, but I think people are doing twenty-five man these days?

Apple Cider: Yeah. I know that the last thing I heard is of a paladin, I think at 80 or 85, abusing that early mastery thing with the Pandarian blues to do heroic Lich King?

Nobble: Yeah, also the- I’ll go and find- I think it was called the celestial dragon or something like that?

Tzufit: Oh yeah!

Apple Cider: Mmhmm! Yes.

Nobble: That was amazing to see.

Apple Cider: Yeah, cause you could get into the raid under 90, so that was- yeah, that’s when I first heard about some really intense soloing stuff other than, you know, that warlock in Serpentshrine Cavern at, like, 70.

Nobble: Mmhmm.

Apple Cider: So, like, I- I forgot the name of that boss.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: It was a long time ago.

Tzufit: Yeah. So, [Nobble], I know that you’re one of our- you said this was the first time that you had a chance to listen to the show, so obviously we’re kind of dropping you in the middle a lot of conversation.

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: But I thought, uh, you know, lots of good questions going on in chat today, I think, which was the one that you had a little while earlier on that we talked about, about Yrel?

Nobble: Yeah.

Tzufit: So, what are you looking forward to in Warlords of Draenor, we should ask, and is Yrel something that you think looks like will be interesting?

Nobble: Oh, what am I looking forward to? So much! Well, besides soloing I also do a little bit of lore on YouTube and, wow, that’s a huge question. I think Gul’dan is going to be awesome.

Apple Cider: Mmhmm!

Nobble: Gul’dan’s betrayal. Yrel has a lot of potential, and- I don’t know if they’ve changed the decision yet, but taking Aggra with them and giving her a good story could be fantastic. I think that’s really something they need to do.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: Yeah. I don’t know if they’ll change their minds or not. They seemed pretty set on that at Blizzcon, but it certainly would add a lot of depth to the story, and, you know, as we said, we’ve talked a little bit about that before but Aggra certainly has a lot of reasons to want to be there, given that it’s, you know, her homeworld where she lived up until Cataclysm, so, should be interesting to see, and I agree with you, I really hope that they do change their minds about that one.

Nobble: Even beside being her homeland, it’s just so very anti-Orc to stay at home and just let the men do everything when Thrall’s father, back in the day, told Draka to stay at home and she was like, “HELL NO!”

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Yeah!

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Nobble: Scratched his face and just went with him anyways.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: So the idea that Aggra would just delightedly stay at home is not especially believable.

Nobble: Yup, exactly. But, I wanted to ask you guys, actually, I mean, with Aggra there’s a good reason to get her into the story, it’s not because she’s female or male it’s just because it’s part of the story, but do you think they should- I don’t wanna say shoehorn, but push more female characters into the story just because they’re female or are you still looking at the proper story and a good background?

Tzufit: I think Blizzard will do whatever they want with the story, you know? They specifically don’t- doesn’t necessarily make sense from a narrative standpoint to go, hey guys, let’s go back in time and deal with a whole bunch of npcs who we killed off ten years ago. That was just what they wanted to do, and so they wrote a story where they were able to do that, so I think that if they want to include more women in a story, they will find a way to do that. I think that’s more their standpoint than coming from a narrative arc first and seeing what makes sense. They just do what they think is gonna be a cool story, so I think, you know, my answer to that question would be, first, have people who think that a cool story involves lots of interesting and diverse women characters, and from there the rest will work out.

Apple Cider: Yeah. It’s- it’s, um- you have to kind of come from the base assumption that a good story can be including women characters, which is, I think, something that we started to see a lot more in Pandaria with people like Taoshi and Yalia, Jaina, Vereesa, you know, you start to see more women characters being included because you started to see this idea that, well, they’re characters too, they have flaws, they have goals, they have agendas, they have grudges, and all that. It’s not just the male characters, so if you really want to have a game that represents your audience, you’ve gotta include so many more different kinds of people.

Nobble: Definitely. Yeah, I remember the guy at Blizzcon at the Q&A who asked about female characters in the story, and the crowd went [edited].

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Nobble: Oh my god, somebody asked the question for us!

Tzufit: Yeah. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: Well, Apple Cider was standing in that line.

Apple Cider: Yes!

Tzufit: So I think if that guy hadn’t got there first, she would’ve been the one to do it herself.

Apple Cider: Yeah, I was too late, I was too far back in the line to get to a question, but I was trying to get people to tell me good questions to ask and everybody was like, JUST ASK ABOUT FEMALE CHARACTERS!

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Nobble: Yeah, I have to admit, the expansion does have a lot of potential when it comes to the story, especially with Garona Halforcen, I can’t wait to see what they’re gonna do with her.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Nobble: I think it will be amazing if it turns out that Yrel from our time is actually her mother. I think that would be a plot twist out of nowhere. It’d be awesome.

Apple Cider: That’s been speculated, and-

Tzufit: The only thing that worries me about- I’m sure this is probably what you’re gonna say, too, is that because Garona is half Draenei and half Orc, and because that’s not a pairing that basically ever happens voluntarily, the last thing I want to see is a rape story for Yrel, so-

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Nobble: Oh nonono no no, nothing at all like that, but at least part of Garona, her story, they already made that story and they can’t go back on it, so I was surprised that Garona got her part because of that, because the last few years they’ve been trying to put her under the rug, saying that never happened.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: Yeah.

Nobble: So that’s interesting to see, and I mean you could link it with Maraad as being his sister. So it has potential.

Apple Cider: It has, although honestly we’ve seen Blizzard retcon stuff with the Draenei before, I think. If they wanted to retcon less rape in this story, that would be fine with me. It’s- I only say that because I- my boyfriend did the starting zone- more of the starting zone than I did when we went to Blizzcon. I just explored, I just started running all over the place, I didn’t actually do any quests. He actually did enough quests where you get to a point in the story where one of the Orcs kidnaps Yrel’s sister and it’s-

Nobble: Really?

Apple Cider: It’s a very kind of weird story, and that’s why I got very concerned about- yeah.

Tzufit: I think it’s important for Blizzard to remember that they can make the Orcs be scary and be a big problem and be a concern without necessarily factoring in that specific type of violence.

Apple Cider: Yeah, absolutely.

Tzufit: That doesn’t really even enter into the equation, so.

Apple Cider: Absolutely, that’s a good point. Also- sorry. (Laughing)

Tzufit: Alright.

Apple Cider: Do we have any other callers? Not that I’m saying, [Nobble], you have to go, leave, go.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Nobble: No, I’m taking up your time, I understand.

Apple Cider: No, thank you for calling though! Seriously!

Tzufit: No! WE appreciate it and we love getting new viewers, new listeners, that’s exciting, so.

Nobble: It’s great, you guys are fun, you guys are awesome.

Apple Cider: Yeah, we try to do the best that we can about lore because I feel like it’s- it’s the most grist for the mill, as far as looking at from a feminist perspective if we’re doing feminist critique, is the story since that’s so much of the game, so.

Nobble: Yeah, it’s things you don’t think about. It’s because of the tweets that I saw on Twitter that I was actually thinking about Aggra and her story, so yeah, it’s a nice point of view to see. It’s awesome.

Apple Cider: Well thank you!

Nobble: Thank you for having me!

Apple Cider: Yeah, no, thank you for calling in! (Laughing)

Nobble: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: OK. I’m going to hang up on you now. (Chuckling)

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: (Laughing) OK, end call… OK… Ahhh. OK, do we have any other- [silence]

Tzufit: Now I have a cat yelling at me.

Apple Cider: Yeah. (Laughing)

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Uhh… [join in the tadpole?] says, hey CM, I love that pole arm, make me wish I could translate regular two-handers to it. Yeah, I wish so too. The death knights don’t really get many opportunities to use pole arms now, especially. Like, they did in Wrath, but they don’t now cause they don’t make strength pole arms anymore other than that one, I think, in throne of thunder? So, really not too many opportunities to use it. Yes. (Chuckling)

Tzufit: Can everybody convince Rho-

Apple Cider: Yes!

Tzufit: (Laughing) To call in!

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Yes, everybody convince Rho to call in!

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: [We can’t be unique about everything?]. (Laughing)

Tzufit: [Nothing makes a comment about our podcast?] like Rho calling into our show.

Apple Cider: Yeah, exactly.

Tzufit: [Hope you’re on chess?] have fun.

Apple Cider: I’m not even gonna try cause I’d have to actually pay attention to what I’m doing and I don’t give a [edited], so I’m just gonna…

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Just gonna go… I already got the pet off the last guy anyway, so I’m just gonna go somewhere else. (Laughing)

Tzufit: Oh, here we go, so Rho has a question for us, which is, do you feel that you may run out of topics before Warlords of Draenor is released? Uhmm… I am of the opinion, I’m of the, I guess, pessimistic opinion (laughing) that I don’t see Warlords of Draenor coming out any time before August, September 2014 at the absolute earliest. And, I think that if that is the case, you know, I think it would be smart for Blizzard to have a spring beta, given how many other MMOs are intended to be released in the spring, so that basically means that we’re going to be living without new content from now until, say, March or April.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: And I think based on the guests that we have lined up for January and the fact that we still have topics on our master sheet that we haven’t even gotten to yet, I’m not worried- I’m not really worried about running out of content per se, just because I think that there’s still so much we haven’t covered yet. We’ve covered a lot, we definitely have covered a lot in twenty-five shows, but I think there’s a lot more to go through, and particularly, you know, we have done a lot of episodes about lore because, as Apple Cider pointed out, that really is one of the easier avenues to discuss from a feminist viewpoint because then you have a text. You have something you can look to and point to, but I think one of the things we’re probably going to be doing a little bit more of is talking about some of the community sides of things, so, maybe things down the road like the culture of high-end progression [cuts out] community, those kind of things that are also of big concern to women players [cuts out] game than the lore.

Apple Cider: Yeah, it’s- I think that one of the things that we’ve always really wanted to highlight and focus on is women in the community, which is why we have a lot of guests on that are women, why we talk to a lot of women about stuff that is kind of germane to their playing experience. Like, the healer episode. The healer episode was kind of a really different thing in that we really did talk about why the perspective that women are healers persists, what’s that about, we talked to women who actually are healers. We wanna look more at stuff like that, and as long as there’s a community involved, we’re never gonna run out of topics in that way. The only problem is that it does require a [edited] more research, and we have to contact people and interview them and it kind of requires a lot more stuff.

Tzufit: Which we would love to do! I Mean, we’re for that, but it is a different level of commitment.

Apple Cider: Yeah, you have to get people to agree to talk to you.

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: That can be somewhat problematic because, you know, especially things like the high-end raiding community, I think there’s a lot of wagon-circling, so, you know, it sometimes can be hard.

Tzufit: And to Lio’s point, if all else fails, we have to do a pet battle show.

Apple Cider: We have to! We’re going to do a pet battling show. It’s on our master list, we have constantly wanted to talk about things like the perception of hunters and pet battling and how people feel about that, about women players, because when I hear people talking about those two things in particular, I do notice that a lot of comments are about how women have sort of flocked to them and the reasons why, and I feel like sometimes maybe it gets a lot less coverage and a lot more sort of snipe-y comments because of that? Like- and that seems to be pretty much in line with the theory that things- and I kind of saw a really brilliant Tumblr post about this, where- women- the things that women do don’t get devalued because women are doing them, they get devalued because women are devalued, and it was talking about how, in Russia, doctors are very consistently underpaid and they’re considered a baseline sort of nurturing medical profession, sort of like how we talk about nurses here in the United States, and the reason that that’s the case is because most of the doctors in Russia are women, and so it’s not that doctors are talked about that way because it’s mostly women doing it, it’s because that’s how people talk about women.

Tzufit: Yeah, and I think that was certainly the thrust of a lot of what we tried to discuss in the healing episode.

Apple Cider: Yeah, absolutely.

Tzufit: So, well, I think that is pretty much our twenty-fifth episode. (Laughing) You know, and- in the course of the twenty-fifth episode, we got choked up about Ji and Aysa, I did my Thrall voice-

Apple Cider: (Laughing)

Tzufit: Umm… let’s see- I feel like we covered most of the major Justice Points themes in episode twenty-five.

Apple Cider: Yeah. I mean, I think we kind of hit all the right notes and, uh-

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: That sort of thing. Had some cool people come in and talk.

Tzufit: Yeah, we- thanks to everybody who called in or who asked questions in chat or who tweet at us or email questions, we really appreciate all of that participation. It makes it a lot of fun.

Apple Cider: Yeah. It’s- we wouldn’t have a podcast without listeners and fans, and um… yeah, seriously, thank you so much to everybody that has ever emailed us or tweeted us a question or a comment or commented on our blog or commented on our episodes or voted for us in some sort of contest or talked nice things about us or had us on their shows, you know, we got a lot of love from the podcast community. Obviously, Rho, Azeroth Roundtable, Tauren Thinktank, who else’s shows have we been on? We’ve been on like seventy.

Tzufit: I think that’s pretty much it.

Apple Cider: Yeah.

Tzufit: Twisted Nether, I was on there, they let me plug, so. (Laughing)

Apple Cider: Yeah, it’s- we’ve had a lot of fan support and a lot of podcast community support, so thank you.

Tzufit: And I think I can announce now that next week our- first of our special guests that we’re having on for our January series of awesomeness is Dysmorphia!

Apple Cider: Yes!

Tzufit: Who you may know from Formerly Elitist Jerks, you probably have seen her on Twitter, or if you’re a healer (laughing) in Siege of Orgrimmar you may repeatedly curse her trinket when it doesn’t drop for you off of Siegecrafter Blackfuse!

Apple Cider: (Laughing) Yes,

Tzufit: I know I’ve been there.

Apple Cider: Yeah, so we’re gonna have her on the show, and we’re super excited because she’s one of our really good friends and she is so smart, so talented, and-

Tzufit: She has a lot of stuff to bring to the table in terms of sexism in the gaming community at large, so I’m sure she’s gonna have a lot to talk about with us and we’re very very excited.

Apple Cider: Yeah, so, from all of us here at Justice Points, thank you for attending the live stream, thank you for listening, and we will see you next week!

Tzufit: We’ll see you next year!

Apple Cider: OH MY GOD!

Tzufit: (Laughing)

Apple Cider: NEXT YEAR! OHH!

Tzufit: Happy new year everybody!

Apple Cider: Yes! (Laughing) Have a good day!

1 comment

  1. Thank you for taking time out to answer my (admittedly cynical) e-mail. Looking forward to that potential pet battle podcast!

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